Once Upon a Time in Iran: Carina and Mostafa

Share this item
Tools
 Podcast
 RSS

Carina and Mostafa are a Danish-Iranian couple who have decided to live in Iran. Mostafa owns his own restaurant and Carina is a painter. The couple met when Mostafa was studying in Denmark. The two soon fell in love and got married. After living and working in Denmark for a number of years they both decided to resettle in Iran. Carina has learned the Farsi language and Mostafa constantly helps her polish up her language skills. Carina is fascinated by Persian art and has taken up Persian miniature painting. This documentary follows this couple on a routine day in Tehran and provides an interesting perspective of life in Iran’s capital city.

TIME CODE: 00:00_05:00

SOUNDBITE [Danish] Carina Afshar Parsa: “My name is Carina Afshar Parsa, my pre-marital last name is Ulrikkeholm. I’m 55 years old. I was born in Odense in Denmark. I lived there until I was 22 and then I moved to Copenhagen. I studied Spanish language and literature there and got my master’s degree. Before I knew Mustafa, I knew nothing about Iran. I met Mustafa in the university and after a while we got married.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Hello sir!”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Shopkeeper: “Hello. How are you?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “I need one kilo of rice.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Shopkeeper: “One kilo?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Here, thirty tomans.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Shopkeeper: “Be my guest.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Thank you very much... Goodbye.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Shopkeeper: “You're welcome.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Two loaves of Sangak bread please. And a plastic bag also.”

SOUNDBITE [Danish] Carina Afshar Parsa: “I used to think that Iranians are Arabs; they have the Arabic culture and they speak Arabic. But then I realized that they had their own language and culture.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “I’d like to buy some sweets for our guests. What do you recommend?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Shopkeeper: “Would you prefer pastries or cookies?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “I don’t know. Which ones are better?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Shopkeeper: “How about these ones?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “How about those ones? I’ve never tried them. One kilo of those please!”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Shopkeeper: “Is it enough?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes, thank you. How about these?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Shopkeeper: “These are covered by dried apricot and there is some cream inside them. Really tasty!”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “I don’t need it today, maybe another day.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Shopkeeper: “How is Mustafa?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “He’s fine. He’s taken the day off.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Shopkeeper: “How are things with his restaurant?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes. It goes well, but we don’t eat the kebabs they sell very often.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Shopkeeper: “He doesn’t bring you any food from the restaurant? Like some of those greasy kebabs?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “No. Those are high-fat and make us fat too. We already eat a lot of butter every day.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Shopkeeper: “Well, tell him to make some low-fat ones.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yeah, He sometimes does so.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Shopkeeper: “Or tell him to bring you some grilled chicken”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes, that’s a good idea.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Shopkeeper: “Here you are. Send my regards to him.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Thank you.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Shopkeeper: “You need some help with the bags?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “No, there is no need. Goodbye.”

SOUNDBITE [Danish] Carina Afshar Parsa: “When you watch Danish TV programs about Iran, you get this image that Iranians hate foreigners. But when I came to Iran, I found them very kind people who are eager to communicate and start conversations. Iranians are very sociable and hospitable.”

TIME CODE: 05:00_10:00

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Everything; fruits, vegetables, rice, almost everything. What would you like to eat?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “I’d like some carrot jam, what is this one?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “It’s strawberry jam.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Oh, nice. Carina, this Salami reminds me of the time we had just met. When the summer comes, it’ll have been 30 years that we’ve lived together.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “We can celebrate our 30th anniversary. In Denmark they celebrate the 25th anniversary, right?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “And after that, the 50th anniversary.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “So let’s throw a party for our 30th anniversary, that would be both Danish and Iranian.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Good idea.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Time flies!”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “I think the last ten years in Iran passed quickly!”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “These ten years in Iran?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Maybe that’s because we’re getting older. Time seems to pass faster.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes. Kowsar says that she feels that time passes so quickly too!”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “It sure does.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “But when I was young, I used to think that I would have plenty of time! I never thought I would leave it all behind in the blink of an eye.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Time was slow for you.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Because your lessons were difficult and you mostly didn’t feel like studying.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “And I used to work.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Yes, you had to work, it was difficult.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Well, here, life is much easier. Back in Denmark we had to work a lot. It was difficult, so for us, time passed slowly there.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Days were much longer back then!”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Yes, it’d take ages to finish a day! From morning to night. From when we were 18 until we decided to come to Iran, it took 27 years, right?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “When did we come to Iran? I was 45 years old.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Yes, you were 45. That means you have worked for twenty seven years.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes, if you were still in Denmark, you would have to work for ten more years. As for me, even more, thirteen years.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “But in Iran getting retired depends on how long one has worked not how old they are.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes. It’s not fair in Denmark; if somebody starts to work at the age of fifteen, they will have to work a lot before they get retired.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Life is hard in Denmark. Remember the time that your sister and you invited me and some friends to your home? You knew that I wouldn’t eat pork because I was a Muslim. So you prepared a food with beef?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes, and some roasted potatoes. We put it in the oven.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “That party was so fun.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Remember the time that you wanted to make some tahdig? You had just started to cook. The tahdig you had made was all black, remember?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “It wasn't black, it was burned.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “And we thought it’s supposed to be like that! So our Danish friends said, "It’s good! It’s tasty!"”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Carina, do you need me to wash them?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “No. I need to cut them first.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Ok, so we are going to eat these beans?”

SOUNDBITE [Danish] Carina Afshar Parsa: “When I met Mustafa he was so handsome. Gradually I realized he is quite well-read and has a great personality. He influenced me in many ways. For example, although I used to read sometimes, but not as much as him and he encouraged me to read more. The reason we decided to get married was that Mustafa and I had a lot in common.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “You used to be better than me in cooking.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Not really, but it was alright I guess. We both used to work and we would cook together also. But in Iran, you told me that I don’t have to do the housework anymore and I gladly accepted!”

SOUNDBITE [Danish] Carina Afshar Parsa: “It was not difficult for my mother at all, but for my grandmother it was different, since we were really close. She was a catholic and she expected me to marry a catholic man. But after a while she accepted Mustafa and started to like him.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Finished?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Carina?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “You didn’t watch the news last night, did you?”

TIME CODE: 10:00_15:00

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “No. I didn’t.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Don’t you have any new words you want to ask me today?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “No, I don’t have any question.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “As for the word you asked me yesterday, I suggest making some sentences and then show me.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “It’s difficult.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Yes, it's difficult. We can do it together after you finished watching the news and writing down the words.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “All right.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] News teller: “The Iranian Navy’s fleet entered the Gulf of Aden. This carrier group consisting of the Alborz destroyer and the Bushehr logistic vessel started its mission about two weeks ago. The purpose of this mission is to protect Iranian trading vessels according to international agreements. Mer’ati, is reporting from there. Cargo ships can travel in peace now because the Navy's 34th fleet has arrived. After travelling 1500 miles, today the 34th fleet of the Iranian Navy has settled in the Gulf of Aden. The first step is to declare its presence. Through a message the Flotilla announces its legitimate duties and readiness to assist and protect all cargo ships.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “I watched the news and I heard a lot of words that I don’t know the meanings of. Could you help me with that?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Sure, take a seat. Ask one by one.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Biharekat?”

SOUNDBITE [Danish] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: ““Harekat” means motion and “bi” is a negative prefix. So, the word means motionless.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Daghigh negah konid?”

SOUNDBITE [Danish] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Look carefully.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Sefidpoostan?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Caucasian, like you.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Sorkhpoost?”

SOUNDBITE [Danish] Carina Afshar Parsa: “I’ve read a little about Shāh Abbās. I like travelling across Iran and seeing all the historical places, especially Isfahan. We visit Isfahan a few times a year. I like the bazaars there. There are also very beautiful mosques. I also like to see the handicrafts there. I also like the miniature paintings a lot. I get along well with everyone in Mustafa’s family but with his mother, Shokouh, I have the best relationship. We always have a good time together. That’s strange because Iranians make a lot of jokes about the animosity between the mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law. In addition, Mustafa’s sisters helped me out in my first years in Iran when I wasn’t able to speak Farsi at all. We would go swimming in the swimming pool and shopping in the bazaar together and they would come with me to visit a doctor if necessary.”

Conversation [Persian] Moustafa with his sister: “Hi!”

Hi there!

Please come in!”

Happy New Year!

I’ve been missing you badly.

Please come in!

Thanks for the confections.

Yes, that’s right.

Please take a seat.

Please, brother.

After you.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa’s sister: “Well, what did you do the New Year’s holidays?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “During the New Year’s holidays, nothing. As usual, I was at work every day.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa’s sister: “How about you Carina?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “I went to mother Shokouh’s and was there for four days and nothing else.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa’s sister: “And nothing else. Daily routine …”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa’s sister: “And you didn't go anywhere?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “No.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “We went to uncle Akbar’s.

Thank you very much.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa’s sister: “Sugar cubes or chocolate?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “No, not sugar cubes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa’s sister: “For dear Carina …”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “She's on a diet.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “I’m on a diet. I have diabetes, give me some cake.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa’s Brother- In –Law: “Dear Carina, thank you for looking after our flowers very well.”

SOUNDBITE [Danish] Carina Afshar Parsa: “With mineral water.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “She has watered your flowers with mineral water.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa’s sister: “Seriously?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa’s sister: “Well done!”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa’s sister: “Dear brother and dear Carina, here is a small gift for you. We really appreciate it.”

SOUNDBITE [Danish] Carina Afshar Parsa: “I think I’m very lucky. Not everybody finds a soul mate with mutual love. You start to live with a man whom you think is unique and - maybe young couples don’t know it - but after 30 years, you still get to know him more and more and your feelings for him gets deeper and stronger.”

TIME CODE: 15:00_20:00

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Here, Carina, you are six years old.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes, I was six.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “That is 1966 … Your first day at school.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Uh huh. Here, I think I’m nine or ten.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Here, yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Danish] Carina Afshar Parsa: “But we don’t have your photos here.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “No, I have mine but they’re at my mother’s home. Here is when you were ten.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “A bit older.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Yes, around that time.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “11 years old.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Janet has done the same thing but has got it framed, hasn’t she?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “We can also get it framed.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “OK.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Here is the house I was born in, in 1957. Our house had two doors, Carina. At that time, that is 70-odd years ago, the house was built. I was born here.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Uh huh.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “When we met with each other, I found a photo taken at one of our friends’ wedding party. We had been invited. It was your junior year in Spanish language and literature and my freshman year in political economics and I was going to change my major to Iranian studies.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “With mother Shokouk in Tivoli. It was 1986. And here we write, with dad in old neighborhood. When dad came, do you remember we went to your mother’s and we told her you were going to marry?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Danes are mostly Protestant.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “And Catholics are in the minority. Our situation was complicated. You were in the minority as a Catholic and I was also in the minority as a Muslim. Then, we went to the city hall for marriage. And then we went to a mosque and got married. First, you converted to Islam and then we got married.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “This is Kashan. It’s our first year in Iran, our first trip. In 2002, we came for a visit.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Then we came for four years in a row and we found it proper to come and in the end we came to settle down. But it was also for my job. It was difficult to find a job related to my field of study.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes. You had a shop …”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “We had a shop but the job was very difficult because the competition was intense.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “All in all, we decided that here could be better for us.”

SOUNDBITE [Danish] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Back in Denmark, Mustafa used to work 14 hours a day. It was so bothersome and stressful. I tried hard but I couldn’t find any good job with my Spanish language skills. I started to teach Spanish but it also was difficult. A lot of students every day, most of them very rude, unlike Iranian students.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina’s student: “Can you show me the composition of this? I want to see if you can remember.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “It was spiral.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina’s student: “That’s right.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Starting from here …”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina’s student: “Excellent! It ends in a person who is very important. Which one was the most important in the painting in your opinion?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “I think these ones are important.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina’s student: “That’s right, because they are in the middle. This is about the story of Shirin and Farhad. In Iran, when we want to describe a person madly in love with somebody we say they are like Layla and Majnun or like Shirin and Farhad.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Uh huh.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina’s student: “Well, these are Shirin and Farhad. This one is about the ascension of Prophet Muhammad into heaven. Again, it’s spiral. Can you show me this one as well?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “It’s in the middle.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina’s student: “Yes, Prophet Muhammad who is very important is in the middle.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “It goes like this.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina’s student: “Great! Are you going to Denmark for Christmas?”

TIME CODE: 20:00_25:00

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes. Everyone is on holiday and has free time.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina’s student: “That’s great! You can see all the relatives.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “They are on holiday for two weeks.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina’s student: “All your friends are there, right?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina’s student: “What would your family like you to get them from Iran?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “They’d like cookies but it’s difficult to carry because they’re heavy. But they also like Iranian artworks.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina’s student: “Everyone likes handicrafts. Won’t your sister come to Iran again?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “They’ve come here twice before. I don’t think they’ll come in the near future. But her husband might come; he has a job in Iran.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina’s student: “Carina, do you like to hold an exhibition of your works?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “No, not now.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina’s student: “Why not now?”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “I think it’s soon.”

SOUNDBITE [Danish] Carina Afshar Parsa: “I hope that Mustafa and I will live together for many years healthily following our interests; Mustafa continues his studies and I get more skillful at painting. I hope we can buy a house in Isfahan and live there for the rest of our lives.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “First you read and then I'll read its Farsi version for you.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Carina Afshar Parsa: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [Persian] Moustafa, Carina’s Husband: “Go ahead. Here it says that everything is short, life is short. Look, it reminds us nonstop. Life is short, life is short. And the good moment you have doesn’t stop; it passes by, so you must seize it. Excellent! You have to seize it at once. Don’t let it go. Khayyam doesn’t tell you to hurry up. He tells you that first you have to realize that this moment is your blissful moment. You should seize it.”

SOUNDBITE [Danish] Carina Afshar Parsa: “It wasn’t difficult for me to convert to Islam because Muslims and Christians believe in the same God and both respect Jesus Christ. Both Muslims and Christians share many moral principles like “you should help the poor”, “stealing is a great sin”, and so on and so forth.”

   

Coming Up Online